Comments on: Echo’s Thoughts – Do You Really Believe What You’ve Been Told? http://degreesofemotion.com/2009/02/13/echos-thoughts-do-you-really-believe-what-youve-been-told/ Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:23:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: admin http://degreesofemotion.com/2009/02/13/echos-thoughts-do-you-really-believe-what-youve-been-told/comment-page-1/#comment-273 admin Thu, 15 Oct 2009 06:30:20 +0000 http://degreesofemotion.wordpress.com/?p=624#comment-273 Thanks for chiming in Andrea, sorry it took so long to write back. Each day when I get out of bed I look forward to making new discoveries. Each night when I go to bed I let it all go because the past has nothing to do with what's going on right now. Sure we need to have knowledge from the past to survive in this world, work, play, cook dinner or fly an airplane but when it comes to matters of the heart and spirituality the past is false everything we need is in the present moment. Like Ram Dass says, "be here now". Namaste Thanks for chiming in Andrea, sorry it took so long to write back. Each day when I get out of bed I look forward to making new discoveries. Each night when I go to bed I let it all go because the past has nothing to do with what’s going on right now.

Sure we need to have knowledge from the past to survive in this world, work, play, cook dinner or fly an airplane but when it comes to matters of the heart and spirituality the past is false everything we need is in the present moment.

Like Ram Dass says, “be here now”.

Namaste

]]> By: Andrea2 http://degreesofemotion.com/2009/02/13/echos-thoughts-do-you-really-believe-what-youve-been-told/comment-page-1/#comment-272 Andrea2 Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:19:03 +0000 http://degreesofemotion.wordpress.com/?p=624#comment-272 No, I don't believe in what I was told as a child. To accept without questioning seems to me to be trusting in others to know the truth when we would be more authentic to discover it for ourselves. One of your original points was that once you label yourself a member of a religion you separate yourself from all your brothers and sisters on this planet. I think people's intention to join or stay in a religion is not to separate themselves from others, but to feel a sense of belonging to a group, a sense of not being alone and vulnerable. You are right though; once we choose a religious doctrine as the one and only truth we do separate ourselves from the possibility of learning anything that differs from that doctrine. It tends to close our minds to other possibilities. That the price we pay for the safety and certainty of our beliefs. I intuit that it is better to keep an open sense of awaiting discovery than to identify and attach our emotions to a religious doctrine. No, I don’t believe in what I was told as a child. To accept without questioning seems to me to be trusting in others to know the truth when we would be more authentic to discover it for ourselves.

One of your original points was that once you label yourself a member of a religion you separate yourself from all your brothers and sisters on this planet. I think people’s intention to join or stay in a religion is not to separate themselves from others, but to feel a sense of belonging to a group, a sense of not being alone and vulnerable.

You are right though; once we choose a religious doctrine as the one and only truth we do separate ourselves from the possibility of learning anything that differs from that doctrine. It tends to close our minds to other possibilities. That the price we pay for the safety and certainty of our beliefs. I intuit that it is better to keep an open sense of awaiting discovery than to identify and attach our emotions to a religious doctrine.

]]> By: casualtyofdesign http://degreesofemotion.com/2009/02/13/echos-thoughts-do-you-really-believe-what-youve-been-told/comment-page-1/#comment-66 casualtyofdesign Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:14:17 +0000 http://degreesofemotion.wordpress.com/?p=624#comment-66 Hi John and welcome to my blog, glad to have you. I wanted to start off with I don't want anyone to do anything outside of question what you've been told... always question. I think if one questions what he or she has been told then eventually you'll come to the point where you see what you've been told is... what they've been told and what they've been told was told to them and so on and so on it goes forever. Any system of thought, any book you've been told has the truth is a pattern or system devised by the thoughts and investigation of other men and women. What is obvious to me, is that I need to investigate for myself. How in the world can I truly say I believe in the Bible for instance having never investigated for myself. In the world of faith/fear based religions there isn't any room for questioning... you're expected to just believe what you've been told. If you do question then you are labeled blasphemy or shunned. People have been burned at the stake for questioning and great wars have begun because of others questioning against ones beliefs. Aside from all that... Can't we agree that all the division in the world be it the Bible, Quran, United States of America, France, etc. can't we agree that all this division in the world will always breed conflict and eventually war. One might say there is nothing wrong with me being a Muslim and that person being a Jew we can still love one another but that is not true. The very fact that one person calls themselves a Muslim and the Other a Jew they have set up division. They've basically said we've investigated into truth and this is our conclusion we are JEWS and the other group says well, we've investigated and we've come to this conclusion and we are MUSLIMS. By that very limited action of labeling yourself one group or the other you have planted the seeds of destruction and fear. Being that there is another group outside of yours that doesn't believe what your group believes eventually will manifest fear, war, jealousy, etc. You may be in your group and say that you still love the other group even if they don't believe what you're group believes but that is not love that is just being TOLERANT. To live in a world full of tolerance is completely different then living in a world full of love. Peace, ~ Echo Hi John and welcome to my blog, glad to have you.

I wanted to start off with I don’t want anyone to do anything outside of question what you’ve been told… always question. I think if one questions what he or she has been told then eventually you’ll come to the point where you see what you’ve been told is… what they’ve been told and what they’ve been told was told to them and so on and so on it goes forever.

Any system of thought, any book you’ve been told has the truth is a pattern or system devised by the thoughts and investigation of other men and women. What is obvious to me, is that I need to investigate for myself. How in the world can I truly say I believe in the Bible for instance having never investigated for myself. In the world of faith/fear based religions there isn’t any room for questioning… you’re expected to just believe what you’ve been told. If you do question then you are labeled blasphemy or shunned. People have been burned at the stake for questioning and great wars have begun because of others questioning against ones beliefs.

Aside from all that…

Can’t we agree that all the division in the world be it the Bible, Quran, United States of America, France, etc. can’t we agree that all this division in the world will always breed conflict and eventually war.

One might say there is nothing wrong with me being a Muslim and that person being a Jew we can still love one another but that is not true. The very fact that one person calls themselves a Muslim and the Other a Jew they have set up division. They’ve basically said we’ve investigated into truth and this is our conclusion we are JEWS and the other group says well, we’ve investigated and we’ve come to this conclusion and we are MUSLIMS. By that very limited action of labeling yourself one group or the other you have planted the seeds of destruction and fear.

Being that there is another group outside of yours that doesn’t believe what your group believes eventually will manifest fear, war, jealousy, etc. You may be in your group and say that you still love the other group even if they don’t believe what you’re group believes but that is not love that is just being TOLERANT.

To live in a world full of tolerance is completely different then living in a world full of love.

Peace,

~ Echo

]]> By: e4unity http://degreesofemotion.com/2009/02/13/echos-thoughts-do-you-really-believe-what-youve-been-told/comment-page-1/#comment-65 e4unity Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:56:27 +0000 http://degreesofemotion.wordpress.com/?p=624#comment-65 I like your blog-great take on our emotions. <I>"The facts are we, all of us are living in a world full of fearful people who have all taken refuge behind our nationalities, religions, books, intellect, etc. If you can see this truth and realize the obvious… everything we’ve done up to this point has failed. Our religions have failed, our ideologies, our United States, our United Nations and any other label or group brought about to bring peace to the world"</I> Interesting observation of the difference between "religion" and "faith"-I've come to a similiar conclusion and have begun to focus on "faith systems" by which all of us live and function. When faith is understood generically, as something universal, we begin to glimpse a way we can learn to understand oneanother by listening to people of faith tell us what it is like to live by their own system. A book called "Stages of Faith" has done an excellent job of positing that faith grows (or doesn't) similiar to the theory of child development psychology- the first stage being what you are referring to as "believing all that you have been taught"- some folks go through life it seems never questioning, never working through for themselves the hard questions of life, but simply accepting what they were handed down by tradition, etc. By holding oneanother in esteem and treating oneanother with dignity, we can learn not what they "believe", but rather what they "set their affections on" or where their ultimate trust is placed, where they go for "sanctuary" when they need a break from the constant battles of daily life. In this since what you are asking us to do is, I believe, impossible:"leave this all behind or outside" the conversation. John Paul Todd http://www.e4unity.wordpress.com I like your blog-great take on our emotions.
“The facts are we, all of us are living in a world full of fearful people who have all taken refuge behind our nationalities, religions, books, intellect, etc. If you can see this truth and realize the obvious… everything we’ve done up to this point has failed. Our religions have failed, our ideologies, our United States, our United Nations and any other label or group brought about to bring peace to the world”
Interesting observation of the difference between “religion” and “faith”-I’ve come to a similiar conclusion and have begun to focus on “faith systems” by which all of us live and function. When faith is understood generically, as something universal, we begin to glimpse a way we can learn to understand oneanother by listening to people of faith tell us what it is like to live by their own system. A book called “Stages of Faith” has done an excellent job of positing that faith grows (or doesn’t) similiar to the theory of child development psychology- the first stage being what you are referring to as “believing all that you have been taught”- some folks go through life it seems never questioning, never working through for themselves the hard questions of life, but simply accepting what they were handed down by tradition, etc.
By holding oneanother in esteem and treating oneanother with dignity, we can learn not what they “believe”, but rather what they “set their affections on” or where their ultimate trust is placed, where they go for “sanctuary” when they need a break from the constant battles of daily life. In this since what you are asking us to do is, I believe, impossible:”leave this all behind or outside” the conversation.

John Paul Todd
http://www.e4unity.wordpress.com

]]> By: Nitram http://degreesofemotion.com/2009/02/13/echos-thoughts-do-you-really-believe-what-youve-been-told/comment-page-1/#comment-64 Nitram Tue, 17 Feb 2009 08:22:08 +0000 http://degreesofemotion.wordpress.com/?p=624#comment-64 You to man, a good meeting; will drop by to share and challenge the boundaries :} You to man, a good meeting; will drop by to share and challenge the boundaries :}

]]> By: casualtyofdesign http://degreesofemotion.com/2009/02/13/echos-thoughts-do-you-really-believe-what-youve-been-told/comment-page-1/#comment-63 casualtyofdesign Tue, 17 Feb 2009 00:19:13 +0000 http://degreesofemotion.wordpress.com/?p=624#comment-63 Oi Nitram! It has been a pleasure talking with you, like I said I'm going to look into Adi Da, who knows perhaps I'll end up posting some of his audio or video. In the spirit of always questioning, peace to you brother. Please do drop by from time to time, I've booked marked you so I'll be chiming in every so often. Also any audio or videos online that you would like to share... whoever they may be please feel free to pass it on. Namaste, ~Echo Oi Nitram!

It has been a pleasure talking with you, like I said I’m going to look into Adi Da, who knows perhaps I’ll end up posting some of his audio or video.

In the spirit of always questioning, peace to you brother. Please do drop by from time to time, I’ve booked marked you so I’ll be chiming in every so often. Also any audio or videos online that you would like to share… whoever they may be please feel free to pass it on.

Namaste,
~Echo

]]> By: Nitram http://degreesofemotion.com/2009/02/13/echos-thoughts-do-you-really-believe-what-youve-been-told/comment-page-1/#comment-62 Nitram Tue, 17 Feb 2009 00:07:58 +0000 http://degreesofemotion.wordpress.com/?p=624#comment-62 "The moment you decide to call yourself a guru or someone else does you are separating yourself and setting up division. What possible good comes from the label guru? There just isn’t any need for it" Just on this point, it can be useful to look at your own limitations, people like Krishnamurti and some of your other influences were certainly hung up on this point, and often with good reason, that said there is also vast culture and wisdom and utility in tradition as well, that is one reason it is unlikely to disappear. Also by opposing this (religion in general ) you are also setting your self apart from the common choice of many (in principal agree strongly that religion as it, is bogus, however) and pushing your own viewpoint as the 'one' that is inherently truthful, the one that is most reasonable and therefore should be adopted by others thus ending the divisive nature of " Religion". cheers:} “The moment you decide to call yourself a guru or someone else does you are separating yourself and setting up division. What possible good comes from the label guru? There just isn’t any need for it”

Just on this point, it can be useful to look at your own limitations, people like Krishnamurti and some of your other influences were certainly hung up on this point, and often with good reason, that said there is also vast culture and wisdom and utility in tradition as well, that is one reason it is unlikely to disappear. Also by opposing this (religion in general ) you are also setting your self apart from the common choice of many (in principal agree strongly that religion as it, is bogus, however) and pushing your own viewpoint as the ‘one’ that is inherently truthful, the one that is most reasonable and therefore should be adopted by others thus ending the divisive nature of ” Religion”.

cheers:}

]]> By: casualtyofdesign http://degreesofemotion.com/2009/02/13/echos-thoughts-do-you-really-believe-what-youve-been-told/comment-page-1/#comment-61 casualtyofdesign Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:37:18 +0000 http://degreesofemotion.wordpress.com/?p=624#comment-61 Hello Nitram, I'm not claiming to know anything, I haven't one up'd you or anyone else for that matter. I promote <strong>questioning</strong> everything... be a light unto yourself. The idea of a guru to me is simply absurd. What is a guru by definition? To the best of my knowledge the term guru by definition is someone who removes the darkness or ignorance from a seeker, one who helps point the way. What does that mean, how is that important and what justifies bowing down or paying special homage to "the guru"? Someone can help point the way that is not the issue here... it is a fact. Someone you meet along the way "Adi Da" or whomever it is may very well point the way and that is a wonderful gift but YOU are the one who has to walk the walk. Nitram lets imagine you and I are stuck in a room and as far as you can see there isn't a way out. Let me play the roll of "guru". I can see the way and after some time of watching you struggle I point the way to the door for you to get out of the room. I as the "guru" have done my job, I have removed the darkness, I have removed the ignorance... MY JOB IS DONE. <strong>You Nitram are the one who still has to get up and walk out the door. Me the so called guru can point all day and night but it is you who have to investigate still, it is you who have to walk the walk. You walking thought the door and finding truth has nothing to do with the guru at this point, it is completely you.</strong> When I go to the doctors office and am sick and don't know why the doctor in this case may tell me its because I'm eating the wrong foods and in order to get better I have to change my diet, habits, etc. We don't bow down or give praise to the doctor and pay great tribute and go on chanting, he did his job its what is expected. The so called guru should be looked at the same way... if I see my brother or sister stuck and they can't get out, why wouldn't I point the way? Is there any need to be called a guru and go on with the teacher pupil relationship? I don't think so. Point the way, help your fellow man but let us not label the person pointing the way and get caught up in silly traditions, etc. The moment you decide to call yourself a guru or someone else does you are separating yourself and setting up division. What possible good comes from the label guru? There just isn't any need for it. Again I will say YES there are people that can point the way, that is a fact but YOU have to investigate that still and you are the one to find truth, enlightenment, etc. With all that said, I don't know if you got my message I posted on your blog but I'm definitely going to look into Adi Da. I found his spirit and delivery full of energy and I look forward to investigating further. Peace and Namaste, ~ Echo Hello Nitram,

I’m not claiming to know anything, I haven’t one up’d you or anyone else for that matter. I promote questioning everything… be a light unto yourself. The idea of a guru to me is simply absurd. What is a guru by definition? To the best of my knowledge the term guru by definition is someone who removes the darkness or ignorance from a seeker, one who helps point the way.

What does that mean, how is that important and what justifies bowing down or paying special homage to “the guru”?

Someone can help point the way that is not the issue here… it is a fact. Someone you meet along the way “Adi Da” or whomever it is may very well point the way and that is a wonderful gift but YOU are the one who has to walk the walk.

Nitram lets imagine you and I are stuck in a room and as far as you can see there isn’t a way out. Let me play the roll of “guru”. I can see the way and after some time of watching you struggle I point the way to the door for you to get out of the room. I as the “guru” have done my job, I have removed the darkness, I have removed the ignorance… MY JOB IS DONE.

You Nitram are the one who still has to get up and walk out the door. Me the so called guru can point all day and night but it is you who have to investigate still, it is you who have to walk the walk. You walking thought the door and finding truth has nothing to do with the guru at this point, it is completely you.

When I go to the doctors office and am sick and don’t know why the doctor in this case may tell me its because I’m eating the wrong foods and in order to get better I have to change my diet, habits, etc. We don’t bow down or give praise to the doctor and pay great tribute and go on chanting, he did his job its what is expected. The so called guru should be looked at the same way… if I see my brother or sister stuck and they can’t get out, why wouldn’t I point the way?

Is there any need to be called a guru and go on with the teacher pupil relationship? I don’t think so. Point the way, help your fellow man but let us not label the person pointing the way and get caught up in silly traditions, etc. The moment you decide to call yourself a guru or someone else does you are separating yourself and setting up division. What possible good comes from the label guru? There just isn’t any need for it.

Again I will say YES there are people that can point the way, that is a fact but YOU have to investigate that still and you are the one to find truth, enlightenment, etc.

With all that said, I don’t know if you got my message I posted on your blog but I’m definitely going to look into Adi Da. I found his spirit and delivery full of energy and I look forward to investigating further.

Peace and Namaste,

~ Echo

]]> By: Nitram http://degreesofemotion.com/2009/02/13/echos-thoughts-do-you-really-believe-what-youve-been-told/comment-page-1/#comment-60 Nitram Mon, 16 Feb 2009 21:34:25 +0000 http://degreesofemotion.wordpress.com/?p=624#comment-60 Hi Echo, not much more to add to the conversation, did I mention that yes absolutely agree, everyone should question there inherited beliefs and many people do, and will continue to I might add though, that the conversation is somewhat stilted, with you telling us how it is, this tends to not really lead to anything useful and may irk people so the conversation ends at that point. You adopt the stance of one who knows, so why then ask the question if you already have the answer ? So then you become this teacher : "One might say the same thing about a teacher or guru. You might get lost in the endless nonsense of someone else and their endless thoughts, modifications and emotions" A useless one ( in the sense of not really adding to the wisdom of anyone ) This sounds harsh, but there is no ill will here, plus I think your tough enough to debate on the level ... Hi Echo, not much more to add to the conversation, did I mention that yes absolutely agree, everyone should question there inherited beliefs and many people do, and will continue to

I might add though, that the conversation is somewhat stilted, with you telling us how it is, this tends to not really lead to anything useful and may irk people so the conversation ends at that point.

You adopt the stance of one who knows, so why then ask the question if you already have the answer ?

So then you become this teacher :

“One might say the same thing about a teacher or guru. You might get lost in the endless nonsense of someone else and their endless thoughts, modifications and emotions”

A useless one ( in the sense of not really adding to the wisdom of anyone ) This sounds harsh, but there is no ill will here, plus I think your tough enough to debate on the level …

]]> By: casualtyofdesign http://degreesofemotion.com/2009/02/13/echos-thoughts-do-you-really-believe-what-youve-been-told/comment-page-1/#comment-59 casualtyofdesign Mon, 16 Feb 2009 06:45:43 +0000 http://degreesofemotion.wordpress.com/?p=624#comment-59 Namaste, Nitram and thank you for participating in this conversation. With regard to your first comment: <blockquote>"One problem you may encounter is that without a guide, teacher or guru you may get lost in the endless nonsense of self (its endless modifications as thoughts, emotions etc)"</blockquote> One might say the same thing about a teacher or guru. You might get lost in the endless nonsense of <strong>someone else</strong> and their endless thoughts, modifications and emotions. In addition <strong>YOU'VE</strong> got to get lost in order to find <strong>YOURSELF</strong>. When WE you and I get right down to it Nitram, there's only one of us anyways. <blockquote>"The presumption that Truth lies within, in the sense of impeccable guidance,or absolute truth within is false."</blockquote> Regardless if truth lies within or without... to presume anything is a trap. If one can remain aware and observe his actions moment to moment, day to day he would never find time to presume anything. If an assumption comes along one doesn't grab it but in the stillness of observation he will watch it pass by. Of course I'm only presuming this to be the truth. <blockquote>"When The Teachers knowledge becomes your own, in other words, proven to be correct by rigorous testing, then it is your own knowledge, not an “other’s”"</blockquote> Does knowledge have anything to do with the truth? Can any bit of knowledge in the entire world or any words we have explain what the truth is? I'm not using semantics to contrive puzzles or put you in a corner Nitram... really, <strong>does knowledge have anything whatsoever to do with truth?</strong> Who is it that has something to teach you or I? This person, guru or whatever other label you want to attach to him or her they have more knowledge than you or I so they have something to teach us? Isn't knowledge a collection of memories and experiences from the past, what does the past have to do with right now? Is the truth set in stone, is the truth set in one position for someone to explain, is the truth static? Or is it possible that the truth is something much more magnificent? Could it be possible that the truth is dynamic in nature, moving and forever in motion? Knowledge being a tool to point out the known... how could knowledge possibly follow the moving, the living, the truth and who in the world has captured this knowledge to point it out? You are the teacher Nitram only you're pretending like you're not. Peace, ~ Echo Namaste, Nitram and thank you for participating in this conversation.

With regard to your first comment:

“One problem you may encounter is that without a guide, teacher or guru you may get lost in the endless nonsense of self (its endless modifications as thoughts, emotions etc)”

One might say the same thing about a teacher or guru. You might get lost in the endless nonsense of someone else and their endless thoughts, modifications and emotions. In addition YOU’VE got to get lost in order to find YOURSELF. When WE you and I get right down to it Nitram, there’s only one of us anyways.

“The presumption that Truth lies within, in the sense of impeccable guidance,or absolute truth within is false.”

Regardless if truth lies within or without… to presume anything is a trap. If one can remain aware and observe his actions moment to moment, day to day he would never find time to presume anything. If an assumption comes along one doesn’t grab it but in the stillness of observation he will watch it pass by. Of course I’m only presuming this to be the truth.

“When The Teachers knowledge becomes your own, in other words, proven to be correct by rigorous testing, then it is your own knowledge, not an “other’s””

Does knowledge have anything to do with the truth? Can any bit of knowledge in the entire world or any words we have explain what the truth is? I’m not using semantics to contrive puzzles or put you in a corner Nitram… really, does knowledge have anything whatsoever to do with truth?

Who is it that has something to teach you or I? This person, guru or whatever other label you want to attach to him or her they have more knowledge than you or I so they have something to teach us? Isn’t knowledge a collection of memories and experiences from the past, what does the past have to do with right now? Is the truth set in stone, is the truth set in one position for someone to explain, is the truth static?

Or is it possible that the truth is something much more magnificent? Could it be possible that the truth is dynamic in nature, moving and forever in motion? Knowledge being a tool to point out the known… how could knowledge possibly follow the moving, the living, the truth and who in the world has captured this knowledge to point it out?

You are the teacher Nitram only you’re pretending like you’re not.

Peace,
~ Echo

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